Artist Interview by: Nina Goodrich
July 2006 - Inspired by creative genius, fueled by love for their art, driven by high energy, and delivering with impeccable performance, the Big Phat Band infuses their complex musical arrangements with plenty of humor and fun.
There’s never a dull moment nor lack of variety with Gordon Goodwin and his latest CD-DVD release, The Phat Pack, consisting of Goodwin’s Big Band jazz ensemble with a special guest appearance by Dianne Reeves, and Take 6.
If the name Gordon Goodwin doesn’t come easily to mind, maybe some of his musical masterpieces will make you say “Ahhh”… Just to name a few: the scoring for “Bad Boys II,” “Con Air,” “Star Trek Nemesis,” “Gone In 60 Seconds,” “Enemy of The State.” Or, maybe you’ve heard the music behind “Attack Of The Killer Tomatoes,” which is included in this album.
Goodwin garnered a Grammy this year for his work on the feature film, The Incredibles. He is a three-time Emmy winner now doing the music score for the upcoming film, “Snakes On A Plane.”
Goodwin created entire compositions when he was only five years old, writing his first big-band chart, “Hang Loose,” when he was only 13. The Phat Band delivered their debut record, Swingin’ For The Fences, in 2000, receiving two Grammy nominations. Next was the giant release, XXL, featuring the exciting assemblage of music and star musicians the Phat Band is now known for, before the current instant hit, The Phat Pack.
Goodwin is serious about his music and believes good music can be fun, as well as being complex. He is determined to introduce the world of jazz to our youth, along with entertaining audiences of all ages. With his CD, The Phat Pack, Goodwin and The Big Phat Band deliver what they are known for: Just Great Music.
JazzReview: Let’s start with your current CD, The Phat Pack, plus the accompanying DVD. How did you come to name your group The Big Phat Band? I understand you had to text message your son to find out for sure what Phat meant during an after gig interview. Would you care to talk about that?
(PHAT is an acronym for Pretty Hot And Tempting, according to the Urban Dictionary)
Gordon Goodwin: (chuckling) Well, I knew what phat meant because it is an acronym. But, at the time I couldn’t remember exactly. It was like—pretty hot and something….Ha! I knew my kid would know what that stands for.
We just wanted to find a name for the band conveying it was a big band. But it isn’t a swing band of the 40s. Even though big band is a traditional part of our core, we live in a contemporary world and we have a lot of contemporary influences on the music, too. It’s a pretty broad range, stylistically, that we try to cover.
JazzReview: And you did that. I was expecting sheer swank, completely from Vegas, but it was a lot of variety--very diverse. A lot of fun stuff is in this CD.
GordonGoodwin: It’s not a Vegas tribute album. Of course, there’s a couple Sinatra tunes on it. But it’s not a Rat Pack tribute record, nor is it a Vegas tribute record. Jazz was a big part of Vegas at one time, so I think there is a sort of logical connection.
JazzReview: You also included a lot of variety, in different venues. “Killer Tomatoes,” for instance.
GordonGoodwin: “ Killer Tomatoes” is a big part of my past because it’s the very first film I wrote music for. As bad as that movie is, it carved out a place in our society. It’s a piece of our culture. Matter of fact, I’m working on a film that has a lot in common with “Killer Tomatoes” called “Snake On A Plane.” The “Tomatoes” has a catchy little theme song in it and we thought we could have some fun with it.
JazzReview: Yes, it’s great. You have a background of writing music. A lot of it is for animation—in cartoons or commercials.
GordonGoodwin: I did spend about six years writing underscoring for Warner Brothers. That was a great experience. I’ve always loved animation. I wanted to be an animator, but I came to the realization I wasn’t a good enough drawer. Then, music started to take over, but I’ve always had a love for animation. Matter of fact, I just finished scoring for a film from Warner Brothers for the Christmas season, called Bah Humduck. They called and said they wanted to have big band jazz for their score, so it was a great fit for me and we had a ton of fun working on it.
JazzReview: This should be exciting. Now everyone will be looking for this movie. Let’s talk about how you chose Grammy winner Dianne Reeves for the classic “Too Close for Comfort.”
Gordon Goodwin: She was on the top of our very short list. We called her and she said “yes,” simple as that. I had a few friends who know Dianna, but we also knew her manager, Bill Pitt, who is also Michael Brecker’s manager on a previous record, for which we got Michael to play. So we pretty much had a connection to her. Working with her was a real delight because singing live with the band, she didn’t want to overdub her part. She wanted to be a component. A lot of singers want to stand out from the band, but Dianne is such a pure musician, she wanted to be part of the band and interact with us. It was a pure pleasure to watch her come into the studio and we just climbed on her back. The version we got was take three and it was a magical experience where everything just comes together. I had seen her a week before at the Grammy awards. I also won a Grammy—so we got to watch each other go up and accept our awards. It was an exciting week for us.
JazzReview: It was intended to be that way, wasn’t it? This is the Grammy you won on the “Incredibles?
Gordon Goodwin: Right. Our stars were aligned.
JazzReview: Coming back with the upbeat, “Play That Funky Music,” your group really does get funky. How did you choose that particular song to insert into this album?
GordonGoodwin: Well, it was from the suggestion of someone from Immergent Records. That person said, “Would you be willing to find an old R&B song and do your version of it??
I was hesitant because every note on the record is something I can stand by; something I believe in. I wanted to be sure if I did that, it would be a song that I love or a song I could put my imprint on. Because I think if you change your music or change your song to cater to specific demographics, people see through that. You’ve got to be honest. As a jazz musician, if you’re not honest, your credibility is gone.
I was very careful picking the song. And clearly, “Play That Funky Music” is not high art. Let’s not pretend that it is, but I don’t think it has to be, to be interesting. If having that song on there will get someone to listen to the Dianne Reeves track, who might not be normally attracted to that, then I think we’ve accomplished something. Also, we were able to get David Sanborn on the track. There’s probably not been a more influential, more contemporary player than Dave Sanborn. I’ve talked with a lot of young people who have heard his more recent records and who don’t know the depth and volume of his work—especially in his first records during his early years. He’s more than a smooth jazz saxophone player. We tend to take him for granted because he’s been around for a while. For me, it’s special to have him on the record. We tried to have a little fun with the arrangement. We do it on our live gigs and brought the house down every time.
For me, it’s a small part of the equation. I could not exist if I had to go on stage and play “Play That Funky Music” every night. If I had to go on stage and play some of the more complex music every night, that wouldn’t work for me either. I would miss the funk music.
That is a blessing and a curse. If you’re a record label and trying to market music in today’s world, you have to call it something. So, if you came down from a different planet, you hear, “Play That Funky Music,” you would say, “Oh, the Phat Band plays funky music." Or, you’d hear “American Eligy” or “Hunting Wabbits 2,” you’d get a radically different picture of what the band is. That is a real problem if you’re trying to market this music.
Just last night we got information about the first week’s sales of the “Phat Pack." I think we came in number 12 on the traditional jazz charts and 16, maybe, on the current jazz charts. Is it traditional? Is it contemporary? What is it?
Fortunately, that’s not a problem I have to deal with that much. I believe in leaving that to the professionals. But, that’s the problem with marketing jazz.
JazzReview: I’ve heard that across the board. Jazz is so hard to categorize and there are so many sub- categories. There are so many dimensions to what you write and what you play. How do you put a person in a slot?
GordonGoodwin: Unfortunately, we have to try and co-exist with a business model designed for pop music. Pop is easier to put into this slot or that slot.
I think, unfortunately, a lot of jazz artists have looked upon marketing as unseemly. I don’t think that if you market something, that gives you license to not make your product as good as possible. Jazz artists have put their energy into making their art as high as they can. Many of us have neglected to put into the equation: how do you connect with your audience, bring your music to them? How do you meet your audience half way? And, I think we’re paying the price for that attitude with our little 3% market share.
JazzReview: Right. I think you have a handle on it with the big band. A lot of people like the big band sound—lots of energy. You have also reached a new audience with the high school group. You have an entire fan base just with high schoolers, as well as the adults. I think our youngsters are hungry for music and when they hear your band, the grooves and the complexities, I think they’re awe struck by it.
Gordon Goodwin: Isn’t that something? One of the most awe inspiring things is when I finish a gig and a kid, his parents and grandparents, come up to speak to the musicians and they are all relating to the music. It’s quite a rare thing these days. I don’t analyze it too closely, but I enjoy it and I’m appreciative of that.
I got a letter from a woman in London who said, “I need to tell you about how your music has affected my kid.” She went on to describe how her son, a trumpet player, was struggling. His grades were slipping and his attitude wasn’t too good. And he became so obsessed with the Phat Band, he had it on his iPod, on his alarm clock to wake up to every morning, and he practiced all day. His grades came up. He excelled in music. It completely turned him around. Now, I can’t say it was just from the Phat Band. I wouldn’t go that far and don’t know what else was happening, but her letter gave thanks to the Phat Band.
They actually flew him to LA last January from London. We brought him up on stage and gave him a little trophy. What is better than that? Is a Grammy better than that? I don’t think so. Now that is an extreme example of music changing people’s lives.
JazzReview: I know exactly what you’re saying. A young man in this town was despondent after losing his mom. The boy was in a school band, playing trumpet. But he’d lost his spirit. After our sax player from the big band went to that boy’s school and showed what potential could be in music, that young fellow told me he saw a purpose for his life. Today, he is on stage with his trumpet. His life was turned around.
I think our young people are starved for inspiration and mentorship. And they need to see more interaction with experienced musicians and be able to see how it works on a bigger scale.
Gordon Goodwin: I think that’s very perceptive. And you know, for us-- most of us in the Phat Band, we came out of the same kind of system we see these kids in, you know, playing music in a high school band. And I think kids can look on stage and see Wayne Bergeron, and Eric Marienthal and Andy Martin in the Phat Band and draw a direct line: Okay, they were right where I am now. Now they’re doing this. And, see how that’s worked out for these musicians.
It gives them an alternative as well. It doesn’t have to be negative.
One other thing; through all our records, I'd like to think it’s all music that lifts you up. There are plenty of people who read social commentary into their music and about the times we’re living in and all that. I think music can be such a great tool to change your mood. We try to do that. Not only in our records, but at our live gigs. It’s such a gift to play music together. We have a blast on stage and I think that’s infectious. It’s great for an audience to see.
JazzReview: They take something away that stays with them.
Gordon Goodwin: I remember when we were in high school and we would go to Disneyland every summer. And we would listen to the big bands. You could get into Disneyland for $5 after 6 o’clock. We would go and see Buddy Rich every single night--and see Woody every night and see Basie. It was a great education just to sit a few feet away from these musicians.
Stan Kenton was another big influence for me. He had a clinic. He was one of the first big guys to realize a big band can find an audience and even survive in the educational system in this country.
Back then gigs were getting scarce and there was no place to play. Back when economics were ever so fragile, I went to a clinic he (Kenton) did at the University of Redlands when I was in 8th grade, and went again when I was in 9th grade. I wrote a piece and won a competition. The Kenton band played it and I got to play with the Kenton band-- back when I was in high school.
JazzReview: That had to be thrilling.
Gordon Goodwin: Oh, that was so exiting. It’s actually even more special to me now because I can look back and realize what a special opportunity it was, what it did to me, and how it turbo-charged my energy.
When you’re a young composer, you’re writing music for young players, and sometimes if it doesn’t sound right, you don’t know it. And you don’t know if it’s because they screwed up or if it’s because I screwed up. To hear professionals play your music and hear what was actually possible was unforgettable. I got to meet Audrey Kenton a few months ago. She came to a gig. It was such a great time, talking and reminiscing, and so on….She wrote some very nice things about the Phat Band and drew some parallels between what Stan was doing and that was great.
JazzReview: That’s great. It goes to show the person’s spirit doesn’t leave just because the person is gone.
Let’s talk about your song, “The Wire,” on this CD. It features some outstanding clarinet playing. You don’t hear a lot of clarinet players these days, so this is a treat.
Gordon Goodwin: When I wrote the piece for Eddie Daniels, I tried to make it as hard as I could. I tried to bust him up with it. He goes, “Yeah, bring it on.” I wrote the piece and did a little demo, then sent it to him. He said, “ I got the piece.” Then, I hear him open the package. Then, he picked up his clarinet and goes, “Let’s see here.” Then, I hear…..he just plays it.
I told him, “Eddie, you really piss me off!” I use to play the clarinet so I know how hard it is—especially to play jazz on. Not only can he play those hard, written-out parts, but he also improvises. “Under the Wire” features Daniels. There’s only a handful of players who can even play that. I don’t know how he does that.
JazzReview: He did an excellent job. There’s so much energy in that piece. For each note change, he has to be fully engaged.
Gordon Goodwin: You know what he does? He’s very much into meditation and it’s like when they talk about athletes, when they get into a zone and everything slows down. It’s very much like that. I think Eddie gets in that space. He gets so relaxed, he just gets into it—into music and into life.
JazzReview: I would have thought it impossible for anyone to do that until I heard it.
Gordon Goodwin: Well, I’ll tell you, it’s impossible for me to do it.
JazzReview: That’s amazing. You have David Sanborn on this album with Take 6.
Gordon Goodwin: Ahh,..Take 6, this is our third track we’ve collaborated with them. I am such a geeked-out fan-boy when it comes to Take 6. I’ve been listening to them since their first album came out in 1988. Their work ethic, their sensibility and their impeccable musicality! They’re all really great guys.
We wanted to do a Sinatra tune. We picked “A Very Good Year,” and our approach to it was quite different than the way Frank did it. We had a great arrangement by Gordon Jenkins and rather than make it melancholy, I wanted to make it fit with the Phat Band—pep it up a little bit, create more optimism in the arrangement. So, Take 6,….I don’t know how they do it. They are also a group that if the harmony gets dense with half steps and clusters, they love that stuff. As a matter of fact, the few times I wrote an arrangement of that kind of complexity, they said, “ Nah, these few chords here…we need to change that—make it more…..” They needed a challenge.
JazzReview: That’s interesting. Do you have a favorite track on this album?
Gordon Goodwin: That’s a very difficult question. I think with me, the more I play a song or the more I listen to a song, the emotional impact dissipates. I’ve been listening to this music longer than anyone else, since it was in my head, then while I write and produce. I think some of the tracks that are older have lost a little bit of their impact for me. But, other people who are hearing the music for the first time, hear it differently. I’m starting to hear the music through their ears. It’s kind of a fun thing, 'cause I’d gotten a little tired of it.
That’s actually a lesson I learned from Johnny Mathis. I asked him one day, “How do you do it? How do you get up and sing “Misty” every single night?” He said, “ It’s such a gift to be able to sing. And, my fans want me to sing 'Misty.' Why wouldn’t I want to give them what they want?” He said, “I’m so grateful I get paid to sing.”
I thought that was a great answer and I’ve adopted that sort of attitude. Especially when people want us to play “Hunting Wabbits” or the “Jazz Police,” a tune from our last record—and, I think, “Oh, I can’t even stand it enough to play it.” I remember what Johnny Mathis told me. When the audience wants to hear it and they give back in appreciation when we do play it, I get what he’s talking about. I think that’s helped me look at the material from a different point of view.
Having said that, I find myself attracted to the vocal songs. That’s interesting because I use to be a bit of an instrumental snob. I’m a sax player and a piano player, but I don’t sing. I’ve watched the roles reverse. Sinatra would come out and sing one song per set. Now it’s reversed where the singer’s the star and the band might get a little spotlight, if they’re lucky.
There’s something communicative about a human voice. I think on a real basic level, people respond to that. When Dianne’s track or Take 6 track comes on, I perk up.
JazzReview: I think so, too. Your music is so complicated with so many layers to it, I’ve listened to it several times since I received it. And each time, I hear something new and different.
Gordon Goodwin: I’m happy to hear you say that because what happens is: it appeals to people more sophisticated in their listening habits. But it also appeals to folks with not so sophisticated listening habits. This is what happens when someone comes up and says, "I thought I hated jazz, but I loved your record." So even if they don’t understand some of the complexities or can’t express some of the counter points that are going on, it just feels good. And, people can relate to that. I don’t see why it has to be mutually exclusive. I think you can have complex music that also feels good and that is communicative.
JazzReview: I think you’re right. And a lot of people don’t realize that. A lot of people think they don’t like jazz, but I see people standing in an aisle in the grocery store totally lost in the piped in music, forgetting about their shopping because the sound has taken them over—and it is jazz.
Gordon Goodwin: Sometimes at the clinic, I’ll ask the kids if anyone has heard of Big Band before, and a few will raise their hands. Then, I’ll ask them this: “ Has anyone seen the “Incredibles?” And everyone raises their hand. I’ll say, “Well, I’ve got to tell you something--You’ve heard a Big Band.”
There are certain people in the media—Brad Bird, director of the “Incredibles”, is one; and Steven Spielberg who is a producer on all the Warner Brother’s animation, have an affection for that kind of music and want it to be in their product. So, they’re bringing that music to a wider audience.
When I was a kid, the first classical music I ever heard was in a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Then, later on when I heard it, it didn’t sound so weird to me. It was already absorbed into my palette.
Jazzreview: Don’t you think that’s a big part of it—introducing the music to our kids at an early age?
Gordon Goodwin: I think that’s exactly what it is. And I think that’s one thing about our school system that’s lacking—not just for jazz, but for all types of music. I don’t feel music should be an extra-curricular for kids. It’s an integral part of life. It teaches people how to understand intangible things. Sometimes in life you have to make decisions that are not black or white. There are grey areas and you have to assess and make an informed decision, given the situation. Learning how to listen to music will teach you that.
I would get so frustrated because we’d be going to a get together—Thanksgiving dinner or something and the folks would say, “Gordon, go play something on the piano.” I’d go sit down and start to play and I don’t think people could go more than a minute without starting to talk. They couldn’t concentrate. Today is even worse because we have a whole generation of kids who are orientated towards visuals—they have to see it.
JazzReview: They also don’t do one thing anymore. They have to do six.
Gordon Goodwin: Right. I come in and my kids are on the computer instant messaging, watching TV and sometimes the phone going—three or four things at once.
Having said that, I like to listen to talk radio in my office while I’m working. If I have something important to compose, I’ll turn it off, but on a regular working day, I listen to it. They still play music on the commercials and I don’t hear a note.
JazzReview: That’s funny. It’s funny what habits we get into and don’t realize.
You close this CD with “Ever Braver—Ever Stronger, An American Eligy.” Please tell me about that. It is very emotional.
GordonGoodwin: I wrote that a few months after 9/11. The mood of the country was pretty different. It’s one of the few moments I can remember in my lifetime we were all pulling politically together. We were all Americans at the time. I tried to convey the sense of sadness and loss we had. But I also tried to say, “This is our challenge: This country rises ups and takes hold of a challenge and perseveres.”
Clearly time has passed since I wrote it. Some people misinterpret it as I’m supporting this or that, or the war in Iraq. It could be apolitical. I talk about this on the DVD on the commentary. It may be a naïve point of view, but I just wish we could all find a way to all pull together on the same end of the ropes.
I questioned whether to even put it on the record; it was so different than anything else on it. Then, John Trickett, CEO of Immergent records said “You’ve got to put it on. It’s just so stirring and touching. I think it’s a great way to end the record.”
I’m interested to see how people respond to it. It’s interesting to know how music and our national politics will intersect. Some musicians write music to make political statements. I wasn’t trying to do that. I just write music that sounds good to me, but in this case, that, arguably, was one of the bigger events of our lifetime and I felt like I had to put something down.
JazzReview: I think it worked out well. And, I think it brings a somber note to the CD but you are such a complex person that I think this song also keeps it real.
Gordon Goodwin: Well, I think you’re right. I think it’s an issue of balance. Okay, we have “Play That Funky Music,” but we also have this piece. Once again, I believe in it, so it’s on there. We can’t play it at every gig. It depends on the environment. It can be very effective. It can also be very hard on the guys. It is such a shift of gears; it requires such restraint and control because it’s classical in nature-- particularly, the opening trumpet solo that Wayne Bergeron plays. You don’t think of him as a classical player. He has to change his whole sound and whole approach. It’s not high and not screaming, but it’s the hardest thing he has to do.
JazzReview: That’s interesting, too. A lot of people would not know that. With the level of musicianship you have assembled for the CD, this had to require many, many hours of work. I’d like to ask how long did it take you to put this project together?
Gordon Goodwin: Well, it’s been three years since we started. The thing is, we don’t work on it every day. The Big Phat Band is a part-time endeavor for all of us. The economic model right now doesn’t support us doing this full time. The musicians wouldn’t be able to pay their bills. And I wouldn’t be able to pay my bills on it.
I have to also take time for other projects and to be respectful of the guys’ schedules. Some of them, like Eric Marienthal, tours a lot. The other guys are on the road so I have to keep all that in mind. We pick and choose our spots. But as far as the number of recording sessions, we will do two three-hour sessions per day. And it took four days of sessions to complete it. Actually, there are two other songs we recorded that aren’t on this record so we have a head start on the next one.
JazzReview: That is a lot of work.
Gordon Goodwin: On top of that, the bonus DVD is a another whole set of challenges because there’s so much there with videos. We have a trivia game on there, and solo transcriptions where the music is actually written out.
JazzReview: Yes, that’s where I was headed next. About your quiz—I failed! It was fun, but I failed.
Gordon Goodwin: We tried to make the quiz so you had to know a little bit about the genre to get it. I think there’s a cheat in there where you can get to the Phat—the little skit we do, after you get the questions right. I’m not sure where—they didn’t tell me where it is.
JazzReview: Yes, if anyone knows how to work their DVD, they can probably do it. I’m one of those people who wait for the kids to come home to get the TV turned on. They have everything layered and plugged into something else.
You did some marvelous interviews on your DVD. Andy Martin says, “You make him rise to the occasion, even when he doesn’t initially feel like it.” How do you inspire your group?
Gordon Goodwin: We’ve established a group mind where everyone takes pride in being a member of the team. As good as these musicians are, as team members, they realize they have to submit to the will of the ensemble. Any expression of ego, or of inappropriate individuality, is not tolerated.
In other words, if the lead trumpet player puts a certain style of abrader, that’s it. If he cuts a note off right here, that’s where we cut our note off. It’s a discipline that studio players have because of their training. When it’s time to solo, that’s the time they express their own personalities.
I think we’ve established a work ethic where mistakes are okay. If it’s a physical mistake where you go for something and miss it, that’s fine. The band kind of polices itself. I have the responsibility to be sure my playing is up to the level of everyone else because I don’t play my instrument every day. I’m a writer. I sit in front of computers all day. I have to be sure when I pick my instrument up on stage, that I’m ready to stand next to Brian Scanlon and Sal Lozano, and those guys. So, I think the group contributes to everyone’s motivation.
JazzReview: Eric Marienthal says “Not only are you a great piano player, but you are a great sax player as well.” I understand Marienthal is a member of the Chick Corea Electric Band and a smooth-jazz soloist.
Gordon Goodwin: He’s got about six to eight albums of his own. He’s also played with the Rippingtons and now he’s playing with the Yellowjackets. He’s remarkable—an astounding musician. His attitude, energy and work ethic help me set the tone.
That helps me because I have guys in the band who are so committed to playing that they don’t mind losing money once in a while. They will be there. They set a certain practice so that people will go up and say, “Well, Eric is not getting upset by this so I’m not going to get upset.”
You know, in a big band, things happen. Some things are unavoidable. But when Eric is rolling with it, it’s hard for the other guys to say, “Well, I’ve got to complain about this.”
JazzReview: Wayne Bergeron says, “There are no passengers. Everyone gets to drive,” meaning everyone participates. That reflects back to what you were saying about everyone inspiring each other.
Gordon Goodwin: Also, I try to make everyone feel invested in each project. That way they realize each guy is handpicked to play in the band. When one guy is missing, it affects our sound. It’s a line I have to walk because if someone in the band gets a gig paying a lot or that’s a good opportunity, I’m happy for him. I would let him out of a job, but I want him to know that affects all of us. Part of the puzzle is missing. So, I’m happy if the band members get a good gig, but at the same time, I’m unhappy to not have them on the job.
Along those lines, I try to publicize each and every one of them and let them know how important they are. After the gigs, we’ll find a table and each member will interact with the audience. They’re kind of expected to do that even though they’re not getting paid to do it. They enjoy going out and meeting the kids and interacting.
Whenever I can get them on one of the films, I do. They are my first choice to play.
JazzReview It’s easy to understand why Goodwin chooses each member-–each with such a commitment to each other, to the project, to the music created and to the challenge of the next song.
Goodwin’s mastery of composition, musicianship, leadership and plenty of humor keeps his band challenged, involved, and just as excited as the audience sharing the love of this fine artistry.
No wonder the Big Phat Band has such a following with people of all ages. They deliver what they promise—Pretty Hot And Tempting music.
For more information: http://www.gordongoodwin.com
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