It is amazing how much talking and audience noise there is on Bill Evans' "Sunday Night at the Village Vanguard."

It's funny you should mention that. When I first heard that disc I thought there was something wrong with my stereo or I had a loose connection. The recording is so good that the fret noise on the bass comes through clear enough (apparently Scott LeFaro lowered his bridge to play faster runs) to really stand out. And of course there are glasses tinkling and conversation, etc.

Given that LeFaro died just a few weeks later, I feel kind of blessed to have such a good, authentic recording. Can't get much closer to actually being there...

The level of audience noise is by design. Recording engineers often raise this level to increase the "you are there" effect. Judiciously done, it can sound quite authenic. However, a lot of engineers never mastered this art. Sometimes a remastering engineer can correct the effect by lowering the noise floor a bit. But most tend to stay away from any changes to the original. This is why collectors, ecspecially of vinyl try to get every newly remastered edition of a particular recording in hopes that someone else got it right. This explains why you see so many remastered versions of Kind of Blue.

Bopyanker

I wish to advocate the position so ably proposed by Canadian genius Glenn Gould:'Let's Ban Applause!'.The act of applauding,mid concert, is an act of cultural vandalism,and is to be wholly deplored:it is distracting,irritating,and expressly contradicts the purpose for which all serious music lovers attend concerts,namely,to listen to the music.There are no rational grounds on which to defend such a philistine intervention,and all occurences are to be stricly condemned.Let us therefore,phase out this unacceptable practice.To this end,a polite notice to the effect that some in the audience would like to listen to the concert,and those who wish to clap may do at the end of the concert,(though preferably not at all);surely no-one would find somebody conducting a conversation on a mobile phone mid performance an acceptable practice:we condemn both clapping/cheering/boorish behavior for exactly the same reasons.Comments please!

Gary, I strongly agree. In fact one of the reasons I've reduced the amount of concerts I attend is for this very reason. Ask any musician what they hate most and they will tell you applause in the middle of a performance is at or near the top of their list. It bothers me so much that I've been known to stand up, turn around and immediately give the choke sign to all offenders. Of course the only ones who seem to appreciate that are the musicians. Hey, who would want to have an important conversation interupted before they're finished? It's the same thing with music. It's not done in classical music until the piece is finished, and it shouldn't be allowed in jazz. When a performer solos, I want to hear every note he or she plays. So does the performer. Oh yeah, that really pisses me off!!!

Bopyanker

Gary, I really agree. I mean, looking at it seriously, at big arenas it's hard to ban applause or screaming, but in any smaller, more intimate place where you watch live music - it should be law! The most irritating thing is when people applaud just after a solo, even though the song isn't finished, or when a composed pause in a song triggers foolish screaming and applause.
Really, arresting applauders or even executing them on the spot is the best way to rid the problem.

/Rikard
Guitarist & composer.

Yes, off with their heads.

Bopyanker

Please remind me to never go to a concert with any of you.

Jazz is music for the people, not for the classroom, or the museum, nor for effete NPR heads who call for hushed reverence at jazz shows.

I agree with everyone of the comments except mongo44.

Can you imagine if, during a Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler etc. concert, the soloist was applauded after every solo. I have bought many an lp/cd that was ruined by audience noise......some clapping for clappings sake...too much drink, perhaps or lack of respect for the music/musicians. Now I try to steer clear of unruly audience noise when I buy my cds.

Television programmes today are also ruined by added background music and OTT sound effects.

Nobody these days thinks that we just want to listen to the music or, if it is a TV programme, what the actors/narrator are saying.

I sound like Grandma Grump!!!!!!!!!!

ears always open to all forms of music!

Quite frankly, I can't see how anyone can consider themselves serious music lovers if they endorse this practice. Not only do you deprive yourself the full enjoyment of the concert. You also make it hard for the musicians to hear themselves if there is a thunderous applause before they are finished. A musician friend once told me that he knows he played the first bar of his solo. But he didn't hear a thing until the crowd stopped clapping for the soloist just before him. By then he was well into the second bar.

This message was edited by Bopyanker on 3-11-04 @ 6:21 PM

I must be attending the wrong jazz concerts. The artists I've seen appreciate audience response, even to the point where bandleaders delay the next change to allow the soloist to receive recognition.
I write this not having heard the CD that prompted this discussion, but I've heard plenty other live recordings where applause and sometimes speaking can be heard. I think it adds to the feel of a live performance. What's the point of calling it live if all you hear is the music? That can be done in a studio.
As to the musicians not hearing because of crowd noise, I guess the venues where some of you attend concerts don't have monitors on stage.
What would you say of those bandleaders who, during the middle of a song, identify for the audience the soloist? Would the audience still be wrong to applaud in those cases?
My goodness, I'm glad jazz isn't as stuffy as all that. The musicians are there to entertain us. If it bothers them to hear applause during or after a solo, they shouldn't be on the stage in the first place.
Let me clarify. Musicians perform and record first to express themselves through whatever instruments they play. But in concert, they're purpose also is to entertain.
As for Mozart, Bach, etc., I always thought the "no applause during a composition" rule was a bit totalitarian, but it is a different style of music - one where midsong applause can have a more dramatic effect. Lots of solos in classical music are quiet, so any audience noise can ruin it. Further, they tend to follow the script - reading the sheet music while they play.
Jazz solos are mostly improv, so I don't believe it's a fair comparison.C

Woody

A lot of us who post on this site are desperately seeking others to agree with their views. Not me. I encourage different views and opinions when I post. The fact that more music is recorded in the studio than live is to have some control of the environment. I love live music and enjoy the spontaniety. But I still and always will enjoy hearing every note being played.

Bopyanker

I certainly want to hear the notes, too. But I don't think I'm losing anything if when the sax player finishes his solo, the audience claps while the other musicians are continuing the background.
And what are we supposed to do if the bandleader points to the soloist or says his/her name while the music is still going on?
Maynard Ferguson, among others, tends to do that a lot.
The consensus here seems to be that if somebody claps while the musicians are still playing, they've committed some cardinal sin. I'd hate to be around one of you guys if a member of the audience actually says something to an artist during his or her performance or - worse - when he/she is introducing the next song or explaining the story behind the song.
And God forbid if someone gets into the groove and starts thumping on the table in time to the beat, or sings along with a vocalist.

Woody

If someone beats on the table or stomps to the beat, I could handle that. I do it myself. But not loud enough to be a distraction. I think the atmosphere is generally set by the musicians. I remember being at a concert given by MJQ. The atmosphere was almost classical concert-like. Very polite, very quiet and reserved. With roaring applause after each piece. By the same token, at a concert given by Ravi Coltrane just recently the mood was more relaxed. Both concerts were exceptional. But both were very different in the idiom of jazz. My point is that there are musicians who don't encourage audience participation. As long as they still give a good performance I will respect that.

Bopyanker

Agreed!

Woody

Well, what interesting reading re audience interuptus applause. I still hate, and always had done, audience morons who have no regards whatsoever for the people around them who are trying to listen to the music. It is beyond rude behaviour.

I was brought up by my parents not to enjoy myself at other peoples expense. It is called good manners.

Bopyanker: you seem annoyed that people are agreeing with other people. Well, if they agree, they agree. Personally I don't give a fig what people think about me. I am my own person.
Reading somebods comment about a particular piece of music or artist they enjoy makes me reach for the keyboard and share my love of the music or artist with that person. I think it is a good thing to share....remember DJ Spooky...an American artist recommended by an English Lass to an American Lad?

ears always open to all forms of music and thought!

Are we talking about classical music or JAZZ????????

I love live jazz concerts and I love live jazz recordings!!! The last give me the feeling "I was there"....That's also the reason I love to listen to the radio, broadcasting a liveconcert. And often I can only think:"Why I'm not there?" or "Tomorrow I see you guys at another location, hurrah!!!"

Don't forget we are speaking about JAZZ!!!!

If you don't like the noise on a cd, don't buy it!

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"There needs to be a little more kindness in the World !"

This night I go to a really live performance, with audience noise....to see Sonny Rollins (this will be my 3rd time). I have to go to Brussels for it.
And the 6th he's playing in my own country, the Netherlands. I'll go to Amsterdam to see him for the 4th time. Hope with some audience noise again....
I go to a JAZZ performance, NOT a classic concert!!!!
I have the jazz feeling in me, and that's not only sitting and listening....

Some of my best friends are jazz musicians, they like the noice, that means you feel "something" with their music. They play in a way to get that audience noise...


This message was edited by Astrid on 5-4-04 @ 8:41 AM

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"There needs to be a little more kindness in the World !"

The post said audience noise during live concerts....does not mention jazz, classical or any other genre of music. I mentioned classical concerts because people clap at the end of the piece of music and not after every solist has finished their particular solo thus ruining other people's enjoyment of the music.

As for live cds and not buying them if there is too much audience noise on them. How is one to know whether there is OTT audience noise or not if you have not heard the cd before. Ordering by mail order is the only way I can buy my cds living out in the wilds.

ears always open to all forms of music and thought!

Sheila, Bill Evans is STILL jazz, isn't it ???

And about Sonny Rollins, I had a good time in Brussels, only that 5 hours driving to come there and 5½ in the night to come back.(!!!!)
BTW, there was a fantastic jazz CD store in Brussels! I could listen to all the cd's, to much to mention..... That's also a reason to go to beautiful Brussels more often...

You know, I'm living in the middle of nowhere, but I prefer to go to some big city's with good jazz CD store's (there are 4 in my country, having anything). Mostly I go there before visiting a concert in the same city. (2 nice things at once!).
Also I often make a deal with a record store in my area, they order for me what I'm looking for. I can listen and if it's not a good one, I don't have to buy it........

If I buy cd's online, I'm always looking for the good online store's, where it's possible to return a cd. Very often I asked friends, read good jazzmagazine's, have good cd books etc. etc. Some of my best friends are reviewers, so I always ask them before, or are the owner of a record label (see my post on the Topic "What's your favorite label").

That Bill Evans cd from this topic is rating (****), that means very, very bad.
So, if you order cd's online , without the possibility to listen to it, be careful.
Not every online-shop is a good one......

So, now I'm in a hurry to come in Amsterdam with that parking problems....It's not easy to go there by car.....

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"There needs to be a little more kindness in the World !"

Of course Bill Evans is jazz, I never said he wasn't.

Brussels is a beautiful city, well it was when I was there many years ago.

It would be a journey, there and back, of about 500 miles to get to a decent jazz store and, without personal transport, impossible. The roads are narrow and over moorland...no straight-there motorway. Also, in winter the moorland road is often closed when it snows.

There are no cd mailorder firms in England that one can return cds unless they are faulty. You are very lucky if you are able to return a cd you do not like.
I read as many cd reviews as I can before buying a particular cd but some reviewers no not mind loud audience noise, I do.

Glad you enjoyed Sonny Rollins concert.

ears always open to all forms of music and thought!

QUOTE:

There are no cd mailorder firms in England that one can return cds unless they are faulty. You are very lucky if you are able to return a cd you do not like.
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Sheila,I also cannot return cd's to mailorder firms, so I have always make "deals" living in middle of nowhere.If not possible to send back a cd, it's for me NO cd AT ALL! It's also hard for me to come out of this area, we have no trains in the neighbourhood, like your terrible small roads, we have it too, like you said: It's also difficult to come somewhere in the wintertime.... EVEN FOR SOME FOOD !!! Also during the summer...
There's also one difference between us: You like it where you're living, I DON'T !!!!!!!

And with so many cd's like you have, one who isn't like you expect...to be honest: I have a lot of them !
Have to live with it. That's the reason I'm asking and asking people I know. Forums are good information for this


This message was edited by Astrid on 5-7-04 @ 9:40 AM

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"There needs to be a little more kindness in the World !"

Astrid, you are lucky to be able to do a 'return' deal for the cds you do not like.

Yes, I do like living in the countryside between the mountains and the sea. I do not think I would like all the flat country you have, though mountains can sometimes make you feel boxed in.

I have bought cds recommended by members on this site and about 96% have been very good. I also get loads of 'freebies' from my friend who runs a jazz/world music cd import business. BBC Radio 3 has many programmes on jazz...recent series on Evan parker, British sax player. They are now doing Herbie Hancock.

ears always open to all forms of music and thought!

I was listening to and enjoying 'Blues for the Fisherman' by The Milcho Leviev Quartet with ART PEPPER live at Ronnie Scott's London 1980. The audience showed great respect for the musicians when a particular solo was well played by clapping in appreciation, but with good manners. No screaming, shouting or other noise pollution. When the concert had finished the audience did clap and shout to the quartet, but again with good manners and respect for the musicians. You could almost hear the intense listening by the audience when each piece was played.

ears always open to all forms of music and thought!

A few replys to some of the forgoing posts.
The argument against clapping during live performance is that it distracts from the music thats being played,and since we attend the concert to hear what is being played,we disapprove of clapping,shouting,stamping,tapping of fingers etc.during the music; I find it intrusive, distracting, and a totally unnecessary invasion.Surely,if people wish to clap,they can do it during the interval/s or after the performance has finished.
Whether a performance is live or recorded is irrelevent : we are interested in musical value,not audience reaction.(The distinction is relevent in other respects,of course,but those are irrelevent here).Clapping only creates a 'live' feel by indicating to the listener that people were present at the recording,and surely its infuriating when listners hijack a recorded performance (eg.,some JATP live shows),or create a sonic diversion by cheering,etc.
It is not only that musicians or listeners cannot hear (as is often true),but that they are distracted from the music,and that certain nuances are rendered inaudible because they are drowned out in the din.If the purpose is to listen,then how can we condone this practice?
I disapprove of bandleaders naming musicians during the performance,since that is also a distraction,and actually detracts from the music,and also encourages outbreaks of clapping and cheering.And as for thumping tables,that shows a lack of respect for others,and is clearly also inappropriate.The point surely is that if you distract others enjoyment,dont do it.
Its nothing to do with being stuffy,but having good manners,and not disrupting the music.Surely everyone can agree to that.

I have just watched a two hour concert from The Barbican, London recorded by the BBC and the audience, many of them young people, were absolutely superb. They listened in silence, only clapping when the music had finished, except once when they thought the piece had ended when it had not....even I thought it had.

It was a joy just to listen to the music without some knob head screaming, whistling and shouting after every solo.

I remember attending one concert and as Phily Joe Jones and Roland Kirk dueted one brainless twit started to holler and scream so much that it was difficult to hear the music. My friends and I had travelled far and had paid good money for the privilege of listening to Kirk and not this IDIOT. One of my friends, 6 feet 5 inches tall, threatened the man with removable by the scruff of his neck....that shut him up and we were able to hear the rest of the concert.



ears always open to all forms of music and thought!